Welcome to the Poly Pathways podcast, helping you create paths for practical polyamory. Your hosts are Kat and Doc. We're glad you're here. Welcome back to Poly Pathways Podcast, whether you're polyamorous, curious, or just exploring, we are so glad that. that you're here. Today we're unpacking a bit of a dozy. We're talking about conflict in polyamory and how to manage it effectively. So basically, I need help. Where do you go for help? How do you talk to people and how do you work through some of those conflicts? Doc is still going through some stuff, but I am super, super delighted because I get to bring in a special guest today. My lovely and fabulous comment is joining us. So I'm very excited to introduce man, who is a polyamorous relationship. coach, basically one of those people that you would turn to when you're working through some stuff or just having a deficit of friendship in your life and really just need a sounding bored to go through it. Without further ado, please introduce yourself. Yeah, hi, thank you so much for having me here today. I'm man. I also go by Man Man, she or her pronouns. been polyamorous since 2016, currently partnered and sort of dating, sort of not, sort of just kind of open to the idea. I got my coaching certification in the end of 2023 because I was kind of inadvertently doing coaching for friends and family, wanted to make sure that I was doing it in an informed way and not like a harmful way, I guess is the best way to explain it. I love to listen to people and be a sounding board. And I think that, you know, kind of one of my strengths is asking people questions that weren't even on their radar. They weren't even thinking whenever someone is chatting with me and I ask them a question and they actually have to sit back and pause and say, oh, I have never even, never even occurred to me. That's such a great question. That's how I know I'm on the right track to helping someone help themselves, I would say helping people feel empowered is like a huge one for me. So I'm just kind of a listener, but I'm a nosy slash curious person. And so that's kind of how I'm here to show up in this space. Which makes you a perfect match for this podcast since we love to listen and talk and kind of work through a lot of stuff. And I think you're the most important voice to have in the room today, especially because I'm sure a lot of those conversations you have around relationships. and advice that people come to you for is because of conflict, right? Conflict themselves. And I think that comes up a lot in polyamory because the more people you have, the more dynamics you have, the more opportunities you have to misunderstand each other. And there's certainly a difference between healthy conflict, which is, you know, growth-oriented, respectful, and productive, and toxic conflict, which is just constantly escalating to arguments, fights, and being really avoidant and harmful. Would you say that people come to you when they're getting the early signs of those destructive comfort patterns or is it more of like they're trying to avoid that? Like is it more? Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of all over the place. I think I don't want to show up for people in a place where I'm just there to validate their experience. If somebody already knows something's kind of going amiss and they're just coming to me to be like, this is what's going on. you know, right? Am I right? Like, that's not who I'm going to be for you. Like, I can assure you there will be times. I agree with someone. I'm like, absolutely. I'm happy to validate that. Happy to hold that for you. But there's going to also be times where someone says something to me. I'm like, oh, yeah, well, you say that. But I'm also kind of like the subtext that I'm hearing is maybe something different that you're not even thinking about, that you're not realizing is there. And so I would say it is a little bit deep in the experience because if people know that I have had, you know, years of experience and dealing with these types of things, but also people who are super brand new to it. And they, like I told you, before, before I started recording, sometimes someone comes to be and say, is this normal? So I like to think that I'm there for all types in that way. Do you find that people have, you know, self-awareness of kind of their role in the conflict? Like, we always ask, do people fight fair? But are they, are they working on like themselves and that's why they're seeking out help, like, in trying to identify their personal triggers and their past experiences. Or do you find that people are more looking for that validation being like, no, I just want to know, like, is my partner wrong and I'm right and this is normal? Like, I'm very curious of like where this is coming from. You know, I think a lot of the people that are just kind of in my sphere and my circle are, I want say like relatively self-aware. You know, a lot of us are huge champions for therapy, personal couple therapy. So I think that a lot of us, a lot of those folks are at least, you know, moderately self-aware that they're not coming to be so blind that they don't know that they're the A-hole, right? Like they don't know anything. They're not on that Reddit thread. It's not on that Reddit thread. They're like a step, they're a step away from that Reddit thread. I guess that I don't say above because that's, you know, not where I'm going with that. But I think that it's just kind of like who you run with, like who you show up with, like, the people that you and I are hanging out with, they're just like kind of self-aware and self-curious from the jump. I can help ask them like questions to get them a little bit maybe deeper into that process of like being self-aware, being able to like label and name things in their experience a little bit. I wonder if the labels help people. Before we hit record, I know we were talking a little bit about attachment styles and how those might play into creating conflict or resolving conflict or kind of like how you have conflict. I know not everybody listening to this might understand attachment styles, but I kind of like your take on how those attachment styles kind of converge in polyamory and kind of what role do they play in discovering conflict and kind of working through it. You know, I think at a very, pardon me, base, like at a minimum, kind of knowing your general attachment style, attachment tendency is one of those pieces in the self-discovery that's really helpful. Just kind of knowing what might trigger you, what like a past trauma might make your initial reaction to something look like. I think that the labels are helpful because they're just a piece to how we're showing up in. these partnerships. I also love to think about, especially with attachment styles and how it's not just one size fits all, how you show up, how your one partner, you know, attachment style with one partner is one way and your attachment style with another partner is another way. And being able to be, you know, understand the nuance and be flexible between the two. But like it really does all kind of go back to the like nagging self-awareness, right? knowing that your tendency might be one way, but someone's showing up in a way that's just super triggering. I don't know, since they're just constantly learning, constantly being self-curious, I think is just so important in the process. And I think the labels are helpful in that process, but also knowing that it's nothing's concrete ever. It's funny how you mention how your attachment styles can change with different partners because my one partner, like, I feel very securely attached to. I don't really have a lot of those peaks in valleys or whatever. They're very steady for me, whereas my other partner kind of brought out from my more anxious attachment styles where I was like, they really like me, do they really love me? Like, are we sure we're okay? Like, I was more quick to kind of engage in that anxious, you know, style. And sometimes, yeah, it can create conflict if it comes up and you're like, all right, I need to know where you are, what you're doing, or things like that. I think it runs right up against people's boundaries and kind of that they're trying to set with all of their partners, right? But I could also see it coming back to the other partners in the molecule, too. Like if you're spazzing out an anxious attachment over one partner, the other partners might feel a certain way being like, well, would you not care about me as much? Why aren't you anxious about me? Like, I don't know if you've ever had that, but I've had that, like, balancing act of, like, where we misinterpret the feelings for someone else. as a reflection of they don't feel the same way about us, right? Absolutely. I didn't mention boundaries. Like, boundaries are another piece of that puzzle, right? The boundaries versus the control versus the rules, ensuring kind of that those boundaries are about self-care. But I often hear of boundaries and rules being in area where people have a lot of conflict. What's a rule? What's a boundary? In one of our previous episodes, we defined boundaries as basically things you set for yourself. or agreements that you have with a partner, and then the rules are basically like, you can't do this thing. Like, it's something you tell someone else they can't do. But I'd love to kind of know, are boundaries usually a point where people start conflict, like either having them or trying to create them? Do you find those to be a point where conflict arises a lot? Absolutely. I think for a long time, there wasn't a lot of conversation around what healthy boundaries even are. I know that back nine years ago, it wasn't a thing that was in, you know, the conversations in such a big way as it is now. So I do think that people understand, understanding the difference between a rule and a boundary, you know, what's acceptable, what I'll accept, you know, from someone else's actions versus me telling someone, they just can't do that. So I think that that is a huge place for conflict. to come up. But again, like, it's kind of one of those, like, basics, the kind of the 101 getting into it, like understanding the difference between rules and boundaries. And I think there's, you know, that common joke about people who are polyamorous having a scheduling kink. I think that's so true, like, for one. I absolutely, these people are obsessed with their Google calendars. And I love that. But I also think that they're with, you know, when you get really deep into polyamory that there's, you know, a kink for processing and a communication and conversation. And I think that some people might set a rule or a boundary. And they're trying to do that in lieu of having the conversation in lieu of communication because it feels easier, but really like at the root of it, knowing, you know, why we want to set up that boundary, like why maybe a rule feels important within a relationship. And so skipping the processing, skipping the communication and conversation around like the why behind those things, I think it's easy to want to plug something in to avoid something because it's hard because it takes a lot of heart and a lot of conversation and connection. And sometimes we don't, a lot of people are, you know, just avoidant of that. So I think that that's, um, a really important factor when folks are thinking about setting rules and boundaries, not just setting them to try to avoid conflict, but like just digging deeper, just the kink of digging deeper, going deeper, having more conversations. Like, if you don't like talking and you don't like communicating, like, Polly might not be for you. It's going to feel like work. It's going to feel like work, absolutely. This is giving me a big, we don't talk about Bruno vibes. I definitely know people that will avoid having conversations just because they don't like it. And I feel like I've never heard it put that way that like processing is a kink. I feel like maybe I am kind of that person sometimes where I'm like, let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. Get you in there. Like in there and figure out why I feel this way. And then if you're talking to a partner that's like, what is wrong with you? Why do you need to poke at this? Like I have seen that. Like I call them, I think I call them bandaid boundaries. kind of like pasting over the real problem by creating a boundary or even a container around it where it's like we're not going to go to, you know, this restaurant because we might run into people we know instead of really examining like, why do you care? Like why is not? Yeah. I think that's super important to call out. That's, I've never thought about that before. Apart from boundaries, where else do you see the most common causes? of conflict. Like, where else are people just, like, running up against it all the time? I mean, even, like, to kind of dip back to that last thought, it's certainly not, like, a polyamory exclusive problem, right? People not having conversations in their monogamous, certainly not polyamorous exclusive, polyamory exclusive, by any means. I think another huge one, and it's one that does feel important to me as I think about, like, like the folks that I want to, you know, help and coach and listen to, is kind of around being honest and transparent with ourselves. And I think a lot of the time, especially for women, folks that are socialized as women, that the tendency is to make ourselves small and accommodating to avoid conflict, to avoid processing, conversations, things like that. And so I think that that's kind of one where just as a friend and a human being, not from, you know, a coaching profession standpoint, it's something that I end up asking like a lot of my friends and family members when they're in some sort of conflict. And I can see that internal problem, not problem, the internal conflict that they're having. And they're coming to me about it. And a lot of the times it's like, well, you just need to, you need to say that. that. You need to, like, say that little part out loud because it's actually a really big part, but a lot of it I really feel like has to do with being small, making ourselves small and being accommodating. And so reminding folks that taking up space is allowed. Taking up space is encouraged. And you might need to say something to someone that they either don't want to hear or might be harm, not harmful, might be hurtful, is the word I'm wanting. Something that might be hurtful for them to hear, but for you to, you know, not be able to be honest with yourself to minimize that. Like, I'll, I'm never going to say, hey, just like, keep that, stay small and keep that to yourself. Like, don't have the hard conversation. And sometimes people won't come to me this stuff because they know that. That's what I'm going to say. They know it, but I'm going to be like, hey, buddy, you got to. You got to say the hard, you got to say the hard part out loud because your partner's on mind reader and no one expects them to be. But if it's something that's on your mind, it's something that you're even like thinking of coming to me with like it sucks, but you're going to have to take up your space here. Yeah, I could see that coming out in a big conflict way, especially if you're living in that kind of mind space. And I'll liken it to like being a mom, right? If you're a mom and you're constantly neglecting your own needs, your own wants, and you're just shoving stuff down, eventually it's going to come out. Like, you can't stay in that bag forever. The bag's going to break. And it's going to come out and it's going to impact everybody. So it's always a choice, right? Do you deal with things when they're small and manageable or do you wait until they build up and explode in front of you? But I could see people like not talking about boundaries, not talking about things that are bothering them, not dealing with, you know, all the pieces that they've been. ignoring and then have it just compounding in a way that probably feels bigger and scarier because of polyamory. Obviously, these are relationship problems, so they exist in all kinds of relationships. But I could definitely see that compounding and being even more dramatic in a polyamorous setting. Absolutely. Yeah. That's just like a jenga blocks, right? Right. Putting them on so we want to go. I know. Okay. And they fall and crash. And then you have to rebuild them all, which is really, I think, the hardest part. And the next part we're going to talk. We're going to take a quick break. And we're going to come back with strategies. Thanks for listening to the episode so far. 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We want to go cross us in the corner in the dark by ourselves with our headphones and not talk to anybody. How do we resist some of those urges to shut down or lash out? I don't know about you, ma'am, but I am really a shut down, don't talk to me kind of person. I'm not really a lash out person. Which way do you go? Yep. I need the reflective time. I need the alone time. I need the processing time. I'm big on. So what does that look like for you? For me, it's kind of like some grounding techniques to give me some emotional regulations, maybe yoga, maybe breathing exercises. I sometimes call it like my own personal timeout. Like, my idea is out before we talk about this. What does it look like for you? Like, what do you do? Yeah, I'm similar. I'm always a big one for breathing techniques. I do a lot of my processing work when I'm taking walks. Also a big, you know, journaler. So I do a lot of my processing by just writing, you know, pen to paper. I think one of the really important things in that conversation, and it's something that I wasn't good at for a long time, is calling that time out, is, you know, really, again, naming it in saying, because I will, you know, and in the past, just shut down and walk away to, you know, my phone down and leave and that's so unpaired to people. It's just not, it's not cute and it's not the way to do it. And I know that now, but being able to say, hey, I'm super elevated. I'm uncomfortable, like in my body right now. I need a time out. I need to go sit and think about this. I will come back to it, you know, at this time or in so many minutes, but being able to communicate that to the folks that you're having some sort of conflict, conflict with it. You need to come back and repair when you do it. I think that that's a lot of us, you know, based on like our, how we grew up, our trauma is like being able to look back and see where it comes from, why it's helpful and why that might be so bothersome to certain people. Some people won't affect them. But I did, I have a partner in the past who I would need to, I would just do, I would just shut down and walk away and it didn't impact him in any way. But then remembering that like other partners are not like that. And they need a heads up on, hey, I'm walking away for a minute and I'll be back and we'll talk about this. Yeah. I think that pause is really powerful. I wish I had that language and that knowledge of myself when I was in college because I remained called where we would get into like nap down, drag out arguments where we would just be screaming at each other. And if either one of us tried to walk away, the response was always, don't walk away from me. Like, you know, you feel like you're abandoning the conversation or like you're pulling the plug on half of it. And I've, I had one partner a long time ago. that thrived on conflict and would constantly be trying to like amp me up and stuff like that. And he would get really, really frustrated when I tried to walk away. Right. Because, you know, they were there for the conflict. That was where, you know, they got, I don't know, their energy or whatever, but they were just a very conflict-oriented person. And I remember I would walk away and he would just be like, like, you can't leave this conversation. It's a conversation. Like, that's so rude. And I'm like, it's not rude. Like, I need the pause. But like you, I didn't have the words for it. I just knew I could not be in that room anymore. How do you know when it's time to come back, though? I think that's something I struggle with. Like, when trying not to be avoidant of the problem, I think comes in play a little bit. And like, how do I, how do I know when it's time to come back from my time out and, like, actually talk about this? Like, that's actually such a valid question. And I wouldn't say it's one that's, you know, one size fits all. It could be dependent on, like, the size of the conflict. It could be dependent on what your schedule's like if your kids need you and you might want to be like, I'll be back in an hour, but in an hour you have to pick up the kiddos from sports. I like the, I will be back and we will talk about this and giving kind of a loose time frame of this afternoon or before bed or whatever that's going to look like. I know there are some folks that are like, hey, I just need 15 minutes to go self-regulate and I'll be back. and like that's surely not a one size fits all because that's not me that doesn't work for me I need much more than that when I'm you know kind of at a heightened state like that so again I hate to say it comes actually like being self-aware but like being aware of what your schedule what your you know energy requirements are for the day with your other your job your family your dog whatever that looks like but just naming that you will be back I guess because I don't I don't yeah I think people like that commitment Like, I'm like, I'm walking away from this conversation because I'm currently elevated. I think it's a great word for it. But I will be back to this conversation when I'm ready. You know, I think, I think that is a powerful statement. Like, I'm not abandoned in this conversation. This is just not productive for us right now. We need to put a pin in it and come back to a really. When you are reengaging, and I actually, this is a super fun, full circle moment for me. I think you're the one that introduced me to like the relationship check-in framework from, one of the other podcasters. And I love to use active listening, like actually validating and doing all of that stuff. But is it good to structure those conflict resolution conversations using, I think, Doc has mentioned before, the halt method or something like that. Basically, I think it was a framework for a regular check-in. And I think it came from the remod. No, it wasn't from remodeled love. It was from... My amory, maybe? Yeah, multi-amory. It was the Montiamory. framework and you had shared it with me and I was like wow I've never seen this before and this was years ago but I remember it being like oh this is a great way to kind of structure a conversation that you might not otherwise be able to start so I think is there is there a good way to reengage to avoid kind of amping back up to the level that you left at so you went and had your time out you stepped outside the room you put a pin in it what can you do when you come back in to make it productive. I think again that's so nuanced depending on the partner. Like you said, with the conflict leaning partner, like I imagine they're going to want to jump back in and like ramp it back up to a 10. So being mindful of, you know, you coming in at a 2 and not just meeting them at their 10 if they're like specifically conflict seeking, which that sounds so chaotic to me personally. You just jump back in at a 10 when you're trying to come back in, you know, so. Yeah. I would hear more relaxed say, yeah. Yeah, I would say come back. So Doc mentioned the hall method, which is like don't come back when you're hungry, when you're angry or you're trying. Don't come back when you're drunk. Like if you're tired and all these other things, like basically check in with yourself, make sure that you can engage at like a fair level, I guess, like not amped up. And then whether you use structure or not, I think active listening is hugely important. Because usually conflict exists when one party, when you're having very explosive content, one party is usually doing a lot of the talking and a lot of the yelling and a lot of that kind of stuff. But when you come back together, giving each person a time to talk and have that reflective listening experiencing, really validating their emotions, why were they upset, what can you work on together? And then kicking it back to them. I use this a lot, actually, in work where, you know, I'll say, here's what I heard, getting it right. Just to be sure that, you know, we're having that communication. Taking it back to polyspecific, though, what is the role of meta communication at that time? It's interesting that when one party, I'll use myself as an example here. So if I'm having a disagreement with my husband, for example, I have a personal rule on myself. that I will not seek advice or go to my other partner to kind of either to not validate my feeling, but also not to get their advice because they're not objective about it. I'm wondering if there are situations where it does make sense to, like, you know, bring the conflict to a meta or keep it out of their range. I'm curious what your thoughts are around conflict and meta communication. Well, I feel like that's such like a loaded question because hinge work is so, so important. so tricky sometimes. And not sometimes I feel like often super tricky. I think that that's, you know, one of those conversations that you, with boundaries that you're setting early on. For me, in using my most recent experience with my one partner, I did process with my partners about the other partners, even if it was just me, you know, venting or just updating them on kind of like where I'm at mentally for the day, maybe because of some, thing with the other partner and not in a way that I guess you're mindful that it's not in a way that's like you know harmful to someone's character right um but i do think as a hinge that that that is such like an important conversation to have really really early on it does get missed i feel like it's a step that often people don't think about but then you know it leads to what feels like you know breaches and trust people's business getting shared that they didn't want shared but nobody knew they didn't you know just things that again kind of because we haven't, like, done this processing or maybe even over processing early on. And there's the framework with the relationship anarchy, you know, checklist of things, how you want to craft each relationship, how you want to show up, you know, doing that worksheet with, you know, each partner separately. But that wasn't a thing back, you know, when I started my, you know, Paulian journey so long ago, but that I have, you know, started to incorporate in my relationships now that I love to go through that with partners to say, do you want me to not share anything at all? Is it, you know, romantic things? Is it conflict things? Is there, you know, what are your boundaries around what I can share about our relationship? I was dating a couple for a while separately. We had the way that we showed up, you know, with one partner was different from the other one. So I had to, you know, then do the Venn diagram of where I was able to show up for each of them. And it did feel like there were times where they had kind of almost agreements and arrangements that, like, I wasn't even privy to. Not that I needed to be, but, you know, because there was some, sometimes there were lapses in those conversations. It maybe could have been addressed early on. We just, it's just the way it played out. It didn't happen. But so I think that establishing that stuff really early on is important as far as, like, hinge work goes. And when you talk about, like, the processing kink, like being a hinge, it's such heavy work and having. other hinges. I think that was one of the things that you and I very first connected on was I work as hinges and our relationships and how, you know, they were super similar, very parallel. And it was a handy sounding board for me to say, hey, I'm experiencing X with Y. And you were like, absolutely, I've been there. I know that. And so finding, you know, again, community, finding people to chat with about that kind of stuff is helpful in how we set up our boundaries and our conflict management decisions, I guess. Just how do people do it is really helpful. I have a follow. I do want to poke more about the community aspect because I want to talk about how to find resources in your community to talk to, which I know is something you're super passionate about. But I have a follow-up question on, you know, the meta communication thing. If a couple is fighting about a meta, does the meta have the right to be in that conversation? And I say that because I heard a story one time that kind of sat with me funny where, a boyfriend and this woman who was married. So similar situations to what we have, there was a girlfriend involved that was involved with the wife, but not the husband. So the wife was the hinge in this scenario. And they were having a conversation. The husband and the wife were having a conversation about the hinge. And they were fighting and having conflict over the hinge. But the hinge did not have a say in that conversation or the, they were having conflict over the met up. And the meta didn't have a say in that conversation. Is there ever a time where the meta needs to be part of the conversation if the fight is about them? Like, that's very, I know that's very, like, specific and nuance. And there's no right answers. But I'm just curious, like, if you're fighting about someone, does that person have the right to be part of that conversation? That's such an interesting scenario. And like you said, it's so nuanced. It's so sweet. Right. I think. there's a lot that goes into the structure, the boundaries, how that looks, depending on, you know, maybe even the topic at hand of what the problem the conflict was. Like, maybe. I think, you know, there are folks who do totally try to really do parallel polyamory where there wouldn't be that type of overlap. And so obviously that would not be one where that would be, you know, relevant. You know, with kitchen table, Polly, I think there's certainly more room for those. I don't know that, like, when you ask, like, do they have the right to that? Like, I think that that's tough to answer with that verbiage in particular, like, who has the right to do what. So I think that that's hard to answer. Yeah. You mentioned a couple that you were dating, like having agreements and boundaries and things that they impacted you, but you were not involved in those conversations. And I see that more in unicorn type situations, right, where you might have that experience, but just thinking outside of that realm, like if somebody is having a conversation or a fight, like especially if it's conflict, right, all the emotions involved in conflict. If they're having a conflict and it involves you and it could potentially impact you, right? Like if somebody is having a fight about you, it's going to impact your relationship. I'm just wondering at what level of visibility do you need to have to that. conflict. It's a really hard question. And I, you know, from like a just a really human perspective, if there was something that if I was, you know, the girlfriend in that scenario, and it was something that was going to impact me, impact how I showed up, I would want to be able to have a voice, have a seat at the table. That would feel important to me to be able to have access to that, knowing that it was going to impact me. But then I guess, you know, at the end of the day, I can't control other people's actions. But it doesn't matter. I mean, it doesn't matter. But, like, obviously it matters. But is that helpful? Is that necessary? I kind of, like, I'm a little bit curious to poke at yours and if this is something that needs to get caught, obviously, or don't answer it, whatever. But, like, I'm curious in your setup if, is that, like, a practice that you guys participate in and having group conversations around hinge level dynamics? I think we have evolved to that point. I don't think it's started that way. But like the boundary conversations in the beginning of a relationship where like this is our space. Like you can't be in this space when I'm... We'll use a bedroom, for example. Like, I don't want you guys using the bedroom if you are having intimate relationships or something like that. You know, and then that evolved to... That's fine, but just not well. anybody's in the house, which evolved into, okay, it's just not when I'm in the house or just not when the kids are here, which eventually evolved, like, devolved into, you know, whatever it's in there today. But I've seen it coming into play in relationships where it was, you know, we have a special place that is ours and or we have a special activity that is ours. And like if I'm saying, like, I am only going to go to masquerade balls with you, man, and no one else can go to masquerade balls unless we're together. and then you're having a fight with your other girlfriend because she really wants to go to a masquerade ball with you and you guys are fighting about it, but it was a boundary we set up. I think it comes up mostly with like houses, right? Like if you have a house and it's your house and you're fighting with your partner that they don't want other partners at a house, whether you live together or not, like I feel like it comes into play where there's other boundaries involved. And sometimes it might feel like to the meta that conversations are had without them, it's like two teachers talking about you and you know they're talking about you, but they're not involving you in the conversation. They're not telling you what's being said. I feel like it's in that messy place where some of that meta communication can kind of get awkward when there's conflict involved. Yeah, using the masquerade ball conversation, it made me think of, you know, why is this special? Why does this need to be a special thing? does it take away the specialness from us if I do that with another partner? And so, like, to me, I immediately went to the, like, why is that important? Like, why? Not the question you were even asking, but like, I love to. I'm like, why? Like, why is that important to you? And I was, like, one of the conversations that I had with this friend of mine who's starting out her Polly journey and, you know, what she wanted for or expected from her partner. And I was like, yeah, no, totally. That's very common. I hear that a lot. Why is that important to you? Like, tell me that. And she was like, oh, I don't know. And I'm like, okay, well, sister, you're going to think about that for a minute because I think that's important. There's important information there for you. I think that just now to get off of that, but back to the do people deserve to be a part of a conversation. I would say nuanced, of course, but being able to be at a place where you can have those conversations like that might be uncomfortable, that might be more grown up, might be like not. the structure of, you know, if you were parallel versus kitchen table, garden party, whatever your structure looks like. I think sometimes you might want to like see if it's worthwhile to step outside, whatever that initial structure looks like to be able to include people a little bit more. I, one of the things, you know, as I'm kind of like dating a little bit now is, you know, what is important for me and a partner. And from, you know, past experience, I now know that having a partner who's in a don't ask, don't tell relationship, not for me. To me, that is like a very important conversation, a very important just awareness in myself that like someone making decisions for how I show up in my relationship with my partner, super important. To some people, they might just say, oh, that's what they've decided and that's fine for me. Like, absolutely in no way will I shrink myself to make someone else comfortable in that way. And that's not talking about, you know, spaces where people are, you know, being unsafe. This is just like normal everyday stuff and how we're showing up. I think it's almost too nuanced to answer, even knowing that I personally won't put participate in that. So, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's a choice people have to make, right? It's like, you know, it's a management dynamics. For me, it's a, it's a conversation. Because we're so tightly enmeshed, if I think it's going to impact my other partner, I want them to be part of the conversation. But my caveat there is only if it's not going to re-escalate the conflict. So if I'm in a place or we're having a conversation that I think is going to re-escalate it if I introduced another voice, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to address it both, you know, with both of my partners as a hinge separately and then see if we need to have a group conversation about it. But luckily, I don't have conflicts in that way anymore, but I do see that as a very common thing where people feel friction from their other partner and don't feel seen or don't feel heard because those conversations are happening without them. But I do think it's largely a hinge thing Going back. I just say that's just, to me, I'm just hearing like, that's a hinge problem. That's the hinge. It's you. Like, I was so grateful when you reached out to me because that was how, that was our origin story of how we met was on the Vermont Love Discord channel where I was experiencing, I think, some type of conflict by partner. And I was just like, does anybody feel me? Does anybody get this? Like, someone give me a flag that says I'm not alone in this island. And you're just like in my DMs like, hey. I know. That was so, like, carmic that I just happened to read it that day and was like, I lit up like, oh my gosh, absolutely. Yeah. Yes. 100%. One of the best things. One of the best things in my life was not happening. But it brings up a really valid point that I super want to touch on and I want to talk about. A lot of times conflict feels like this big moose in the room, right? And in the grand old days of yore, when we used to just, you know, go to the next village and talk shit at the tavern. that was great, that was healing, whatever. Seeking outside support is really critical to conflict with religion. On the self-awareness side, that looks like therapy, it looks like counseling, all that kind of stuff, that's self-piece. But sometimes just having somebody to talk it out with that is not on your payroll or is not going to see you through the lens of a diagnosis or something like that can be really critical. And I think that's something that's very challenging in non-monogamy because if you go to try to talk to all your straight friends about the problem you're having with your two boyfriends and your girlfriend, they're going to look at you like you have six heads. They might judge you. They might change their views on you. I've had several friendships that the nature of our relationship changed from knowing that I was polyamorous. So how do you find and how can you find resources that are going to be that sounding board? I think the same thing as we weren't talking about pre-recording the people not just specific to polyamory that finding friends as an adult is hard. You know, you get into your adult working life. You might be a parent. The only thing you have in common with these other folks is that you have kids, you had kids at the same time, right? It's not a lifestyle specific. Parenting is not enough to exclusively like find your friend group for sure. And people often struggle with how do I make friends? And I think for especially like neurodivergent people, the rejection, sensitivity kind of thing, putting yourself out there to meet anybody from a friend perspective or poly community, not even poly community specific friendships. But putting yourself out there in dating and finding friends, like getting rejected, having someone not click, having it not be the thing. Like no one loves that. It doesn't feel great. So, you know, there being a willingness to potentially make. those connections knowing that rejection is maybe right around the corner is hard. So sometimes it's like we have to do hard things, right? Like it's not cute and it's not fun, but it's important. And, you know, for us with our origin story as it was, finding people, finding community spaces where you can potentially make those connections. I have a friend who's said been kind of like feral posting on threads and has made several like polyamorous connections. with people that he wasn't, like, been set out to make. But, you know, sometimes you have to, like, put yourself out there in a way that feels safe for your, you know, your family, your job, whatever that looks like. But for us, you know, that, that Discord was a safe, obviously, like a curated safe space for us to track each other down. So knowing kind of what those community spaces might look like, like some people will just go to Reddit. And I'd be like, use caution. So much talk. Right. Like you absolutely can find good connections and find people there, but finding the kind of smaller micro communities to meet people and then just being willing to potentially get rejected. Like it's, there's no like safe way that's not going to potentially hurt your feelings if it doesn't pan out. But that's anything. Like that's meeting someone at a coffee shop and being like, hey, we're reading the same book. Like, do you want to chat? And they're like, no, I absolutely don't know you and I don't want to chat. like it's just a matter of, I feel like especially for people that are introverted or maybe shy or whatever like. Or women. Or yes. Exactly. Yes, 100%. Especially for the poly community. Like we don't go into the thinking and we're just going to meet one person, one partner, one. We do it largely for knowing that there's other similar folks in this community. So yeah, so I guess tracking down micro communities is super important. And the interesting part about micro communities, and I might have, I don't know if I commented them in the conversation or maybe in another episode, but my micro community, you live in a larger city than I do. But not that I live in a small city, but I'd say like medium, but the city you live in is larger than mine. What I found about my micro communities where I specifically sought out polyamorous people on Facebook groups and, you know, places like that. I would say online. Online. It was very dating-centric and not very friend-centric. So I was looking for people where basically like, I need a sounding board. So when I'm having issues with my relationship, someone might know because they've been there. And that's not what I found in my micro-communities. On the flip side of that, so the internet failed me on that one. But the micro-communities that I discovered locally that were very poly-friendly and very open, things like that, were probably more illuminating. So in the LGBTQ community, I found, you know, different places where there was more people like that. But I found a bigger group of polyamorous people. This is a little bit of a stereotype. But in my case, it was true. Renaissance festivals, art festivals. My partner made a joke to me. He plays Magic the Gathering. We play Dungeons and Dragons. And at the game plays where he likes to go and hang out and play, the ratio of polydemonof. people is like, uh, like eight to one. So he looked around the table the one day and basically was like, who here is in a polyamorous relationship in some fashion? And it was every single person at the table except one guy who was like, I'm single and I'm angry. It was such an illustration though of like there are, yeah, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason in some cases. And in this particular case, like people who are into certain types of things. Like you find your people, you find your vibe, and you start to find those communities. So even though you are not looking for dating or whatever it may be, you might find community in weird places. Absolutely. I think it's cool. Unfortunately, for us introverts, you got to leave your house. You've got to leave your house. You'll leave your house. I actually do. I wonder, and this is completely off on a tangent, I wonder if the reason that people have tried, trouble finding friends now is because more people have become kind of enlightened in their own way where they don't put up with crap anymore. I think back to some of the friendships that I had modeled for me when I was a kid and they were not great friendships. Like my dad had some friends that they were not good friends to him and he was not a good friend to them and they were just bad friends, but they were friends for ages and ages. And I'm wondering if now that we are becoming more, I would say, in touch with our ourselves and our own personal boundaries if that's why it's more difficult to find friends because we're less willing to put up with bullshit. I mean, honestly, that makes sense. I think when you think of the conversation around folks, you know, unmasking and showing up, like, really how they are in whatever space, that space gets smaller and smaller. And so being intentional about that, being mindful that your circle is going to get, get smaller as you are able to show up and have people show up in the same way as you. But the net is just, you can cast a wide net, but like what you're going to get back is like pretty small at the end of the day. And I think there is a conversation around quantity versus quality in terms of that. Like absolutely they're friends that were good friends for me at the time 20 years ago that are not, we're not in the same circle now because we don't. do anything the same. All we have in common is that we were friends 20 years ago. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel like I have like rings of friendship now. Me trying to containerize everything. I feel like I have like the inner circle of people that I can talk to and go to and pretty much bring them anything. So Doc's definitely one of those people for me where I can talk to him about anything. And then I have like my hourly layer of circle where it's like there's almost boundaries that you have with those people on what I'm willing to talk to and willing not to talk about and sometimes they break through and like cross over but very rarely do they and then you have like that outer layer circle that just have like a superficial understanding of you like very surface level like I know like five things about you and that's it and that's okay like to have those different layers I think for for us as polyamorous people is like when we're struggling to find that that that inner level of connection is what is needed to really talk about your relationships and talk about like your problems and stuff like that that type of bond, you need to have a level of trust there. And I think that only comes at the inner layer. And that might be why we struggle sometimes to find resources that and people. Well, people aren't resources, but you know what I mean. Resources and people that we feel that trusted level of communication with. I think that's really the struggle point is getting that inner circle. I agree. Yep. But you could have that inner circle with a poly friend that maybe they're not your inner circle for everything. Maybe they are just your trusted poly resource that you talk to regularly. But I don't know. It's an interesting layer of thought on our social areas. Right. And I was going to say the people that aren't maybe in the inner circle that are maybe in the next level circle, I think sometimes, like, again, being mindful of, like, wanting to bring them into the circle, but not knowing if, like, they have, like, an actual valid space in that inner circle. I think it's kind of like an art, kind of a dance. I did have a friend asked me once, like, how do you tell people? How do you, you know, who do you feel safe? How do you know how to do that? And I was like, after doing this for, you know, what is it? nine years at this point. Like, vibe. Yeah, it's vibes. That's what I said. I was like, it's Lur-A-Rai. There are some people that, like, you know, you meet. And in a few months, you're like, this person is chill and cool and will be able to see me unmasked and see me cool. And some people's vibes that maybe you know for 20 years and you're like, the vibes are just not it. Like, it's a fides game. And that's so unhelpful at the end of the day, but it's so accurate. We're all just riding on V. Literally, vibes, bra. Whole life is built on vibes. But I don't know. I feel weird talking about vibes sometimes because I'm like, is this something I experience that no one else experienced that you can just vibe with somebody? And then I'll have people that look at me and they're just like, what are you talking about? I'm like, that vibe. Like, you know, you're just like with somebody and it could be like 15 minutes. You're like, oh, my God, you're my human. And then you need other people and you're like, ew, please never speak to me again. Because the vibes are off. Totally. The vibes are real. I think they're real. I don't know. I need some research on the vibeability. Yeah, so you see the vibe research. This is my next research project, the vivability vibes. We're coming to the end of our recording time, but I wanted to talk a little bit about this is going to be a resource dump real quick. Friends, super important, but there is still that valuable part where maybe you need a therapist. Like, sweetie, you need therapy. That's okay. but finding a poly-friendly therapist can be somewhat challenging. There's monogamy bias that shows up in therapy a lot. There's a lack of training in polyamory. Like, even while meaning therapists, we won't understand the nuances of poly relationships. They'll kind of default to some bad advice. Like, just pick one person or maybe you should just try monogamy. Like, friends, we know that monogamy isn't the answer because the divorce rate is so high. So there's plenty of times where shit does not work at monogamy and it doesn't work out in polyamory. It's not the nature of the relationship structure. It is just the work that needs to be done. There's also gatekeeping and misunderstandings that occur where they will point at polyamory and be like, polyamory is the problem to avoid addressing the real problem. But there's also insurance and accessibility issues. We're both in the United States. Hello, private insurance. We know you're ruining our lives. Whatever. Try to find somebody who is poly-informed to a level of your comfort. There's directories for this online. So there's poly-friendly.org, which has a full list of poly-professionals. The National Coalition for Sex Freedom, King and Poly, Aware of Professionals Directory, I think it's ncsf freedom.org. They have good resources for finding non-judgmental stuff. And then psychology today, therapist finders, kind of a last resort, but they usually allow you to filter on LGBTQ issues. I think non-monogamy might be part of it now. I found both of my therapist was actually psychology today. Perfect. Yeah. I have a client that's a psychologist. So usually I'm looking at it from his lens, which is a little bit different. But yeah. So if you can't find anybody online, which you probably should, you can ask around. But there's also sex positive therapy centers. A lot of people who work in the queer and king community, not all of them. That is important to say not all of them, but a lot of them are at least poly-informed to the place where they can make you a recommendation because they're trained to work outside those heteronormative kind of structures that exist. You want to ask specific questions before you get involved in any of them. Have you worked with polyamorous clients before, what your perspectives are, all that kind of stuff? Real quick footnote about my daughter was seeking therapy and the therapist found out a year into our sessions that we were polyamorous, and let's just say she did not take that well. There's a whole other episode on this issue, but basically she spent two valuable sessions instead of working with my daughter who was seeking help for a medical condition in dragging me and all my partners into a room and basically grilling us about polyamor because she did not know anything about it, and then she had questions. And it was kind of that masking scenario where they were looking at that as the issue, when it had nothing to do with the diagnosed medical condition if you were dealing with. Yeah. So that was pretty wild. But yeah, you need help. By all means, seek out those resources. Find your community. Find your therapist. Find the people that can. We are going to take one more quick break. And then we're going to wrap this up with how to move forward after conflict. Need to juggle multiple priorities, big goals, and a pack schedule? Of course you do. Motion is the answer. The smart AI calendar app automatically sketched. schedules your tasks for when you have time to boost productivity. So whether you're balancing work, family or side hustle as motion helps you stay organized by automating your to-do list and scheduling around your life. It is the secret weapon for anyone chasing success or cross jobs, responsibilities, or relationships. Click the link in the show notes to discover how motion can help you tearing chaos into clarity. So you found some help, you've talked to some people, you figured out what your, what your issues were, and now you're ready to, to actually put this aside and move forward as a couple, as a unit, as a polygule, whatever that may be. The number one thing I want to call out here is the art of a genuine apology. I think this is something we're trained as a kid to basically give the most BS apologies ever. Like your mom telling you, say sorry to your sibling and you're just like, sorry is the basis of what we know about apologies. I think what makes apology meaningful is acknowledging that you caused harm, even if it wasn't your intention, you don't get to decide if you hurt somebody. If they're hurt, they're hurt. And you have to take acknowledgement for that. So acknowledging that you caused harm, take responsibility for causing that harm. You can say it was not your intention, but acknowledge that that's your responsibility that you did cause that, intentional or not, and then how you're going to make amends, how you're going to come back together. Then the ball's kind of in their court and is in your court. What are you going to do now? The difference between forgiveness and reconciliation is kind of important. Man, I'd love to know how you use these two things before I jump in with my two sons. What's the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation? I mean, I think to me, forgiveness is such a, it's kind of one of those things that, like, I can't really, like, name what it's a vibe, really, honestly. It's a vibe to me. Like I have to make a conscious decision and I don't know how it is for other people, but to decide to forgive someone. I'm a natural grudge holder of the way that I was raised. It feels comfortable to, you know, like I said, I like to walk away. I used to like a really stone wall. I used to like really feel some sort of self-satisfaction to be a brudge holder. And so I have to have a conversation with my friends. myself and make that conscious decision to forgive someone when they have inflicted some sort of harm on me. And thinking about the art of a genuine apology, you know, you have the three steps. But for me, there's also, and it's like a future forward thing, but the action that comes from that. And I think in any sort of longstanding relationship, the action piece when someone has, you know, acknowledge their harm. they've taken responsibility, made amends, but then how they're moving forward and fixing it for the forward for forward us, for future us, right? And so that's kind of ends up being a pattern as, you know, a couple in a relationship and how you see them do that and then you can trust in the future going forward that they're not going to do that. You know, if you have someone who does those first three steps and then there's never any action, then, you know, you can't trust. that they're going to, you know, try to reduce harm in the future. So it's kind of like two separate thoughts. But as far as me like forgiveness, I like I really have to do my work as far as processing it, doing my journaling, thinking about it. And for me, it feels like actually like stepping over something, stepping past a barrier where I'm able to forgive them because I don't want to hold bridges. Like I don't want to carry that way. I don't think anybody wants to do that. It is just a past inclination that I have. It doesn't feel good anymore. So I've done enough therapy that that's not it for me. But when I went into therapy, that was definitely something that I was like, how do I get better of this? Because it's kind of feeling really icky inside of me. So to me, that's just for me a personal thing. I don't know if that's a common part of the process for folks. There's no normal. There's no normal. Literally normal. That's just what I experience, absolutely. Yeah. I would say the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation for me is super stark. And I have a wonderful therapist to thank for that. So she gave me the gift of being like, you don't have to have a relationship with someone. So during my time in therapy, I was going through something really heavy. And I was having a hard time forgiving somebody who really did me dirty. And it was really eating me up inside. And I was like, how can I forgive this person? How can I move on? Like, I really want to reconcile and do all this stuff. And she said, forgiveness is you forgiving them, right? It's that first part of it. It's acknowledging the harm, the taking responsibility and doing that stuff. So, like, I can forgive somebody that wronged me and basically, like, have my peace with that. The reconciliation is that action. That's, I love that you brought that up because it's the action that makes the reconciliation happen. So you can forgive somebody. So there's people in my past that I've wronged, but I haven't reconciled with them because they're not part of my life anymore. I feel like reconciliation is the reconnection from the actions that occur. Like, we are purposely making amends and purposely taking actions together to come back and reconcile and be back together and be in this orbit. So I think that's really important for people, this is kind of a tangent, but like people who are in abusive relationships, obviously they're going to struggle like hell to forgive their abusers, right? But forgiving them and letting go of that peace and being like, they caused me harm, they're responsible with that harm. this is not my harm. I'm going to forgive them so that I can move on, but I don't owe them a reconciliation. I don't owe them a relationship. I don't have to reach out to them. I don't have to do whatever that last step of AA is where you have to go make amends with people. I don't have to do that part. I feel like that for me is the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation. There are people I forgive, but I don't have a relationship with anymore. I don't have to. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I think that's kind of the difference for me. And again, I don't know if that's the normal setting on the washing machine. After you decide, you know, whether you're going to do forgiveness, whether you're going to reconcile, whatever that may look like, my goal is always to move to a place of peace. Like, if I see you in the street, do I still want to cut you? No. But establish the road ahead, right? Set new agreements, set new boundaries if necessary. Don't leave it as vague expectations. Always answer that question, now what? because having vague expectations after a major conflict is how you get into that conflict again. And I'm sure you have friends, I certainly do, that repeat those patterns. They have the same fight verbatim on repeat over and over and over and over. And I'm like, guys, can you just, can y'all about, we pinpoint this and put a little fixer in place. Do you have any thoughts on how to do that? like how to create kind of like a recovery repair plan after you reconcile with someone? You know, I don't think I have anything specific. I can mind for that. Yeah, no, I like the thought of what that action step is going to look like. And, you know, kind of it comes down to holding people accountable if that means it's a conflict that you need to have a specific check-in maybe in two weeks or a month or five days, depending on what the conflict was. I think, you know, there's the art of holding people accountable for taking action on what they said they were going to take action on. But again, it's just that, like, do you think it's processing? Yeah, I think that it's. But also, like, I guess at the point, like, I'm not, you know, someone's mom. Like, I, at what point do I want to hold someone accountable? At what point is it their responsibility for me to even be, like, tracking it? Because then that becomes, I feel like, a whole other layered thing of, you. said you were going to do this and you didn't do this by X date. So I think, like you said, having really specific agreements depending on what the type of conflict is. But a check-in is one of the easiest ways instead of like me just watching someone to see if they're making good on their stuff, like say, hey, in two weeks, let's have our check-in, have this be a topic, a line item on our check-in to see if we feel like this is resolved or if it still needs another conversation. Yeah. I think of that like one fight that I had in my household and we're not going to say who's who in this scenario, but there was someone in my household that was spending a lot of money and it was a conversation about should you be spending this much money. It was a financial conversation. And one of the things that came out of that was sending the action item that to avoid this conflict in the future, we're going to have a monthly finance meeting where we just talk about this as a group and that was our preventative measure. It wasn't something that ever came up again we had that in place. And there were times where we didn't need it when we were like, okay, let's just have a verbal check-in instead of something formal. But I think having that plan of what are we going to do if this conflict comes up again could be really helpful. It's like, all right, if we are in this situation again, what are we going to do about it? But also the coming back together. Like, after you've had conflict, some people have recovery rituals. I'm thinking of all the people that have like breakup sex. Right. Right. Right. Spite sex. Like you have that. like reconnecting or something like that. So maybe after you have a major fight, you take a walk together or you go visit a special place or you go do something to kind of put the conflict to bed. Sometimes it's nice to have some type of recovery rituals kind of cement what you talked about and know that you guys are on the up and up. But I also think it's important, especially towards the end of conflict, to have humor. Funny. Like, if you're far enough removed from the conflict, like you had your time out, you came back, you resolved it, it's okay to laugh about it. And maybe too soon, but being able to poke back to you, like, you remember that fight we had? Being able to, yeah, it's just one of those things about being honest. Like, being able to find, you know, levity and humor in the situation. I think that I completely agree that it's so important to be able to have space to, you know, even just like be silly again. It feels like a connection ritual to me personally. Yeah. You got to put on your jacket with the flower in the pocket. that squirts water. All the thoughts, yes, exactly. Be as silly as possible until we get all the bad vibes out. Only good. The vibes. Until the vice is better. All the vibes. Yeah. Thank you so much for doing this episode with me. Do you have any final thought before we wrap up? I don't. Thank you so much for having me. It's been fun and an honor to be on your space. And we will post her links to her website in the chat. This is not self-promotional. but if you are looking for a friend in the poly community or just someone to talk to, I highly recommend her if she is the best. Comey up. Coming up with me. So thank you so much for joining us. We explored how to navigate conflict and poly relationships, impacts of attachment style, strategies for managing those hard conversations, and really how to kind of set some strategies in place to avoid having toxic conflict in the future. We also touched a little bit on poly-friendly therapists and, of course, the magic of finding your poly people. and your community out there so that you don't have judgment in your everyday life when you are going through conflict. It's hugely important. Find your people. They're out there. I promise you. There's somebody out there that needs you just as much as you need them. Conflict is inevitable, but the growth comes from turning towards each other with intention, both your partners and your community, and our lives are always improved by learning how to resolve conflict more effectively with our friends, at work, at our relationships, all those things. And my biggest thank you to Mann-Nan for stepping in to record me this week while Doc is out taking care of his personal health. You are a treasurer. This is true. I wrote this in the notes. Oh, gosh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. And as always, if you enjoyed this, please share it with your pellicle, with your friends, with your community. Subscribe. Leave us a review. Thanks, as always, for being here with us on Polypathways podcast. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, consider subscribing and follow us at Poly Pathways podcast on all the social medias that you enjoy.
