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Welcome to the PolyPathways Podcast, helping you create paths for practical polyamory.
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Your hosts are Kat and Doc.
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We're glad you're here.
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Welcome back to the PolyPathways Podcast.
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We are so glad you're joining us for today's discussion.
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Today we are talking about the cult of polyamory.
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Is it a cult?
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Are we a cult?
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Are we sure it's a cult?
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Is it not a cult?
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You have some opinions and some feelings about people who come to polyamory, why they get
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here and why they stay and how it impacts your social circles, whether people think
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you want to date them all the time and can we even just be friends?
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That is what we are talking about today.
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Yeah, I mean, I think we can be just friends.
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We're just friends and that's working out.
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And that is working out really well.
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I think it's true.
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But I think too that this whole notion of the cult of polyamory really goes to that
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idea of because you have made yourself available to multiple loving relationships or multiple
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sexual relationships, depending on how your polyamory is flavored, then it's that fear
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of then the world becomes your oyster.
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Now everybody, now you're on the hunt, your eyes darting left to right in every social
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situation you're in and people's real fear of polyamory is trying to convert them.
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And for me, the way I thought about it is this is also that insecurity that comes from
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things similar to homophobia, right, is polyphobia.
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Because you are away, now you're trying to get me to be away or I am going to succumb
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to your wily charms or whatever it may be.
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But the cult of polyamory is what we're talking about.
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It's interesting.
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And just before the show, Kat and I were talking about it might not be polyamory that's the
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cult.
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Here's a hot take.
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It might actually be monogamy that's the cult.
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I don't, polyamory people are not angry at monogamous people.
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Every once in a while we're asking are the monogs okay?
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But that's mostly because they're not.
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And it's not because they're bad people.
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Monogamy, polyamory, both valid.
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But the monogamous, the insecure monogamous are trolling the bejesus out of all of, out
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of polyamory.
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And that's actually happening right now.
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So as we're recording this podcast, we're on a delayed release.
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There are a bunch of people on TikTok actually that are coming after old content of people
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in the polyamorous space that put a content out there and are making themselves vulnerable
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by sharing.
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There is just a lot of hate right now.
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And you know, it's unfair to blame everything on the political culture, but let's call a
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spade a spade.
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Like the political culture is kind of hot right now where people are empowered to be
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mean to people who are different from themselves or who are not traditional in their value
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sets.
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The social piece we're going to come back to later when we're talking about how polyamory
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impacts your social circle.
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So you know, are you trying to convert people and things like that?
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But maybe, you know, maybe monogamy is the cult.
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Monogamy is synonymous with a lot of traditional types of relationships and religious and culture
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and kind of all those layers add up to it.
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You know, if you've ever been in Catholicism, you know that before you get married, you
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go to Greek Canada, you go through all these steps and things like that.
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And it feels very, you know, cultish in the way that they describe it.
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But we're not here to determine if monogamy is a cult or not, or if polyamory is a cult
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or not.
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We're talking about, you know, why is this coming about now?
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So why is this socially such a big deal right now?
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So that we can talk about the social implications of polyamory.
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And I think this comes back to the whole, it takes a village.
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In the past several years, there has been a noticeable shift, especially during COVID
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and even times before COVID, where people are moving away from community and village,
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you know, not even throwing it back to like ancient times, but those community and villages
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that you even had in the 50s and 60s and even before that, where people would support each
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other and help out.
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The push for the last several decades has become fiercely independent on housing and
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money and childcare.
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It's how fast can you get out of your house?
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How fast can you buy a house?
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How fast can you become self-sufficient?
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And we've alienated ourselves from our communities.
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There are people talking about this outside of the poly community.
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I follow a podcast called Money with Ki.
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And there's an episode or I think it actually might be a blog that she did about we live
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in a society basically commenting on the reliance of paid services or tasks instead of our neighbors.
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So you don't borrow a cup of sugar from your neighbor anymore, right?
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You door dash it.
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Or you Uber eats it to your door from 7-Eleven because you need sugar and eggs.
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Or you're going out for eight hours and you need someone to let out your dog.
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You're not asking your neighbor, you're calling up Rover or you're using an app.
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And we're commoditizing some of these community transactions into money transactions, further
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alienating ourselves from our community.
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Like I don't need my neighbors.
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Do you know all of your neighbors?
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You're getting in the society where you don't need anybody.
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And I think polyamory feels cultish in that way because instead of saying everybody for
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themselves, everybody on their own, everybody needs to do their own thing.
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We're bringing that community resourcing back together in the poly space.
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I know Remodeled Love is working on a nuclear fusion app that has that aspect of the community
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in it.
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But I think that's why there's this kind of hunger within some of us that feels very
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passionate that we want to find that community again.
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And polyamory seems like a natural place for that to evolve into because polyamory is friendships,
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it's close things.
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And yeah, the title of this podcast is Can We Just Be Friends?
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And the answer is yes.
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But it goes beyond just romantic relationships into the types of communities we're building
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and what that togetherness looks like.
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I think that polyamory is not necessarily a response to societal pressures and the transactional
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hyper-independence that we've created as a society.
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Polyamory of course is the way that we love people.
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We happen to just be wired in a way that makes multiple loving relationships possible.
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It highlights in our brains the need and the possibility of developing community.
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This is something I've done my whole career, developing community and togetherness within
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institutions and in organizations that I've been part of to try to find third spaces and
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common spaces where we can come and we can talk.
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And what I find in that work is that we're creating conversations and connections and
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community and time and time again when we bring these people together, we find that
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people are happier, they're thankful that we're able to come together in things.
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And I think for polyamory, we do that with that lens of we're in a loving relationship,
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we're in a loving relationship with each other, with other people, and we divorce ourself
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of that hyper-independence.
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Because communities, as it turns out, can absorb a lot more than an individual.
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If a member of the community is struggling or they're having a problem or somebody new
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to the community outside the community is having a problem that's related internally,
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the community has more of an ability to absorb that, help that person, bring them back to
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where they are comfortable, and even bring them into the community.
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There's actually two books that I've been reading, one book I've read, one book I'm
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reading now with one of my partners.
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Soul Boom, which is a very popular book written by Rainn Wilson of Office fame, talks about
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a need for a spiritual revolution, but within that book, Wilson talks about the loneliness
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epidemic.
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He talks about the hyper-individualism.
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He talks about how we've gotten away from supporting one another.
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We've gotten away from using community to drive the overall good of all people, and
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talks about it in terms of both service to self, service to community, service to the
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world at large.
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It's a super great read, and I think for me, it really started to give gel in my head
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around language that I would use around building community.
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And then the book I'm reading now with one of my partners is called Together.
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It's written by Vivek Murthy, who was a former Surgeon General, talking specifically about
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the loneliness epidemic in the United States, which is where Kat and I are recording, and
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how that loneliness epidemic has impacts in public health, has impacts in societal problems
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like drug use and all these other things.
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And I'm not all the way through the book.
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There's my caveat at the recording in this episode.
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But so far, the book really talks about how we're just not together.
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We're just not a community anymore.
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We use things like, I don't know how many meetup apps notifications I have in my email
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that I'm not going to, not going to happen.
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Even having my neighbor offer, "Hey, if you need a ride to this, we're happy to give you
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a ride."
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"Oh, no, thank you.
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I can get an Uber or a Lyft.
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I don't want to bother people."
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And that hyper-individualism, that hyper-independence, I think, is just a symptom of what Kat's
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talking about, that division and transactional nature of our society.
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Exactly.
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And I'm really glad you brought up the point about polyamory not necessarily being a societal
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response, right?
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Because I think both Doc and myself think of polyamory as a relationship orientation,
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similar to the way people think of sexual orientation, right?
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This is the way you were born.
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This is the way you're wired.
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We use the term wired a lot because we just are nerdy and think about our brains that
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way.
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But I do think that polyamory is a wiring that we have.
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And people are afraid to disagree with that and think it's a choice or all those kinds
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of things.
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We're not here to debate that.
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But for us, we consider it an orientation.
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The societal piece is there to kind of illuminate why we feel free to explore this in this point
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in time.
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The added pressures of those loneliness and the commoditizing of the community and pushing
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us away from each other just makes us more hungry for those connections.
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And I think that's why when people get into polyamorous relationships, it tends to dominate
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the conversation a lot.
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And that domination of the conversation where poly people are always talking about being
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poly, which is ironic since we now have a podcast about it.
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Poly people are always talking about being poly, and it's because it is different.
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And it freaks people out, right?
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It's dominating the conversation.
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So they do think it's a cult.
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They think you're trying to convert them, even though that's not really the reason why
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it's dominating the conversation.
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Some of them were trying to convert.
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Maybe you.
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I'm not trying to convert any.
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I'm kidding.
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I'm kidding.
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I'm kidding.
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Obviously, I'm kidding.
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But we're not trying to convert people to polyamory.
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But you're not wrong, though.
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It does dominate the conversation.
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And the irony is it's dominated our conversation for so long that we're like, let's have a
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whole conversation and let's record it and let's make a podcast out of it.
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Let's invite other people to the conversation.
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But I think that it is something that we always want to talk about because it is about love.
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It is about support.
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It is about what makes us feel good.
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It is about meeting these intrinsic values and needs inside of our lives so that we can
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be better.
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Being polyamorous, talking about polyamory makes me a more caring, supportive partner.
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It makes me a more caring and supportive colleague and friend and family member.
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And we're talking here really about love.
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We're talking about love here on a larger scale, which Leoba Skaggly would say, hey,
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love is the most important thing in our life, but we don't talk about it.
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Well, we're talking about it.
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But because I think we also talk about it because it is the hot topic, right?
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This is a topic du jour.
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Societally, we're seeing a lot more representation of polyamory.
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It's new to a lot of people, so they're talking about it a lot.
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And we're talking about something that's important to us with a great deal of passion.
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For people who are monogamous, their first thoughts are, oh, God, they're trying to convert
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me here.
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This is a real problem.
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Why are you talking?
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I'm not interested in polyamory.
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But the weird and interesting, not weird, but the interesting overlap here is we're
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not really talking about polyamory.
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We are, but we're talking about what love is.
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We're talking about what support is.
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We're talking about the ways in which we navigate the relationships, because that's
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also one of the big questions we get is, I can't deal with one person.
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How can you deal with two or three or four, however many people you're dealing with,
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wherever your saturation point is?
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That's always very telling when someone says, I can't deal with one person.
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Well, then why are you feeling?
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But also the answer might be that maybe it's not one person, maybe it's two people that
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you...
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But I think that that's part of why this is a dominant conversation, because this is
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important to us.
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It comes directly from our hearts.
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It comes directly from our spirits.
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And it's part of just a normal conversation.
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I don't think Kat and I are in normal lives or like at work talking about being polyamorous
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and what does that mean?
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And my partner is this and my partner is that.
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But it is just a normal part of our lives.
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We're not making it very dominant.
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But because we talk about a lot, it does tend to make people think that maybe we're in a
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cult and we're trying to convert people.
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And the political...
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And we're not talking about national politics, but the political ire, the sociopolitical
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ire that's invited from people who are not polyamorous, who have not investigated polyamory
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as a way of understanding, it tends to freak them out.
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I think that's definitely true.
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And it's sometimes we don't realize that we are talking about it as much as we're talking
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about it.
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Think of it as...
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I don't want to liken polyamory to a hobby, but think about when you are excited about
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something new.
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Like you just learned how to crochet.
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You just learned how to build these amazing things.
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You just learned a new video game or something like that.
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Something that you're passionate about that you are spending a lot of time and energy
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and effort on, you get excited about it.
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You want to share that with other people and you tend to talk about it more.
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So that happens more often for polyamorous people because we experience the NRE, the
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new relationship energy.
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When you have a new partner, you're going to talk about them.
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When you're dating someone new, that's so exciting.
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You want to talk about their likes, their dislikes, how they eat with their fork.
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All that weird stuff that you talk about with your friends comes up more frequently and
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you have more partners to talk about.
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And this is especially true if you are new to polyamory.
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Earlier in my polyamory journey, when I had my boyfriend, when I first started dating
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him, I was going to a gym very regularly and a friend of mine, I recognized that I was
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constantly talking about my new partner and constantly talking about being polyamorous.
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And I was just so excited about my partners and everything was going so well.
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And I had just so many good vibes to talk about that there were other people that I
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worked out with that were kind of leaning into me and being like, "Hey, I need relationship
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advice.
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Hey, you seem to be working this out.
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Let's talk about it."
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So I ended up talking about it so much that I actually got fatigued talking about it because
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I had to step back and be like, "Why am I talking about this all the time?"
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And I noticed that time versus now, I don't talk about it nearly as much because now it
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is normalized for me.
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It is more comfortable for me.
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It is basically not something different.
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It's not as fresh in my mind as something brand new.
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I don't have a new partner.
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I'm not seeking new partners.
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All of that kind of stuff is kind of normalized for me and I don't talk about it as much.
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But when it does come up, you still get a lot of societal-based questions very much
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like Doc was saying.
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How do you deal with this?
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How do you deal with this?
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And you become like a mini therapy for your friends.
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So I think it dominates the conversation naturally based on our interest levels, not because
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we're trying to tell people, "This is the hottest new trend in weight loss and you need
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to try it."
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It's not to convince.
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It's just an excitement reaction.
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I think that's absolutely right.
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We're not trying to convince people.
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I find that I have more conversations with people who are like, "This is really interesting.
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I could use that in my monogamous relationship," or, "I really love the way that you're talking
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about that," or, "This is super interesting," and even have gone to their partners and said,
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"Is this something that you're interested in?
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I just talked to Doc.
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He was saying this and that and the other thing about it.
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Is this something we should explore?
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Maybe not.
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I don't know, but I'm really interested in things like relationship check-ins and communication
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and trust and being open about our feelings regardless of where those feelings may lie
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in a mononormative culture."
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I think that that's what I've really loved about talking about poly is that I'm not trying
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to convince you.
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You want to talk about your relationships.
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Maybe you just discovered that I'm poly and that's okay too and you want to talk about
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it.
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I think it's great to talk about it.
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I'm happy that when the conversation is that of curiosity, I've also had people who are
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like hands down, 100% dyed in the wool monogamous who were very like, "This is very cool for
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you.
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I really like this.
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I really support what you're doing.
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It seems like this is really working.
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I really love how you're addressing these problems.
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I really love how much love you have and how supportive your partners are of you.
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My partners interact with my colleagues and let them know what's going on if something's
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happening with me," which is a whole other episode.
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But I really think that people are out there and they are afraid and that comes from a
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place of insecurity.
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They're doubtful about their own place in their relationship.
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They're worried that your polyamory will somehow invade their lives and take away something
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that's really important and for couples that have approached me about opening their marriage,
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that was their early fear.
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What if you meet somebody that's better than me?
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That is a problem.
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That is a concern and that concern is based on a lot of different types of things that
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you can work through with your therapist, but this is part of it.
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We're dealing with want, not need.
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Which is exactly what we're going to cover in our next segment.
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So we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, we're going to talk about how
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being polyamorous does impact other people.
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Does it mean you want to date them?
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Does it mean your friends' relationships are going to be changed because of it?
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We're going to dive into that when we come back.
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Hey there, amazing human.
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Just a quick pause to say thank you for tuning into the PolyPathways podcast.
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Whether you're here for your first episode or you've been along this polyamorous journey
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from the start, we see you.
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We appreciate you and we're so glad you're here.
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If you're loving this conversation, we've got a little request.
19:45-19:48
Don't keep all this polyamory goodness to yourself.
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All right, let's get back to the episode.
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All right.
20:42-20:43
So welcome back.
20:43-20:46
We are going to talk about do all your friends want to date you?
20:46-20:48
Are you going to date all your friends?
20:48-20:53
How does it actually influence your friends' relationships by you being polyamorous?
20:53-20:55
And that is a big one for me.
20:55-21:02
So as Doc kind of alluded to before we went to break, your relationships and you being
21:02-21:06
really excited and even though you're not inducting people into the cult of polyamory,
21:06-21:10
you can still have influence on your friends' relationships.
21:10-21:13
I actually have a sad story.
21:13-21:17
I'm going to try to sanitize as much as possible for the sake of the innocent.
21:17-21:23
But I was invited to an event at my friend's house and the invite was sent to me.
21:23-21:24
It's a long time friend.
21:24-21:28
I have known this person basically my entire life.
21:28-21:31
Been to this event many years prior with my husband.
21:31-21:32
That came through.
21:32-21:38
I RSVP'd yes, I will be there with three people, myself and my two partners.
21:38-21:41
And she said, no problem.
21:41-21:42
Not an issue.
21:42-21:47
The day of the event, I get a text message as they're setting the table that the husband
21:47-21:52
of my friend freaked out that I was bringing both of my partners to this event.
21:52-21:58
This was about a year, I believe, into my relationship with my new partner.
21:58-22:04
Even though this person knew about this person, they were deeply uncomfortable with having
22:04-22:06
both of my partners in their house.
22:06-22:09
And I was told I had to pick one.
22:09-22:12
So needless to say, I did not take that very well.
22:12-22:13
I said, I understand.
22:13-22:15
I respect your decision.
22:15-22:16
We're just not going to attend.
22:16-22:18
So the three of us did not attend the party that night.
22:18-22:25
The interesting part about that is their relationship as a married couple has some things about
22:25-22:27
it that I don't need to share here.
22:27-22:34
But it was kind of contradictory to not being allowed to openly embrace my two partners.
22:34-22:43
And what I heard later was the husband believed that by allowing this and by allowing my friend
22:43-22:48
to continue talking about this with me, that my friend was going to get ideas and that
22:48-22:54
she was going to seek polyamorous relationships because I was polyamorous and I was going
22:54-23:00
to basically osmosis it onto her, similar in the way that people think by being near
23:00-23:02
gay people, you're going to turn out gay.
23:02-23:03
Like there's a proximity bias.
23:03-23:04
Like you're not wired that way.
23:04-23:07
You're going to absorb it from the people around you.
23:07-23:11
And while we can absorb traits and habits from other people, this is not one of those
23:11-23:12
areas I agree with.
23:12-23:17
And I felt really bad for my friend because she's a very strong-willed person.
23:17-23:18
She is a very wonderful person.
23:18-23:20
She knows her own mind.
23:20-23:23
Never in a million years did I think she was going to be like, oh my God, I should try
23:23-23:26
that because that's a great idea.
23:26-23:31
She's wired monogamously and I don't want to be that way.
23:31-23:37
I think the other thing that is really important to say here is that polyamory demands a higher
23:37-23:40
level of communication, right?
23:40-23:44
Traditional monogamous forms of communication, like learning your spouse's cues and learning
23:44-23:50
how to read people and reading between the lines and a lot of that kind of fuzzy stuff
23:50-23:55
that happens in a one-on-one relationship, you can't do that in polyamory.
23:55-23:56
You have to be open.
23:56-23:58
You have to be up front.
23:58-24:02
You have to be on a higher level of communication with everybody because there's more people
24:02-24:05
involved and it's more juggling, right?
24:05-24:08
You have to do the work to manage those communications differently.
24:08-24:14
And by having those conversations and talking about it, your monogamous friends feel the
24:14-24:18
pressure of that to level up their own communications.
24:18-24:22
As Doc mentioned earlier, I don't even like my one partner.
24:22-24:24
How can you have two?
24:24-24:29
There's a level of animosity that starts to occur when it's like, "Oh man, I can't talk
24:29-24:31
to my partner about that.
24:31-24:32
I can't talk to my partner that way.
24:32-24:36
I can't tell my partner my needs, my wants, and make demands on my time.
24:36-24:41
I can't have escalation and de-escalation conversations with my partner."
24:41-24:48
It just changes the conversation and I think that pressure can change your friendships
24:48-24:51
and the people in your social circle and how you communicate with some people.
24:51-24:57
I think that level of communication and clarity and normalizing the feelings we're having,
24:57-25:02
how we're dealing with those, I think that does tend to make people who are just used
25:02-25:08
to the implicit communication or lack thereof or fears of being who they truly are, who
25:08-25:15
they've grown into being because we all do evolve every day, really does tend to create
25:15-25:18
some gaps in our relationships with each other.
25:18-25:26
Yeah, I definitely think that if you are worried about your partner hearing about poly and
25:26-25:29
thinking it may be a good idea, they probably already were.
25:29-25:31
They just didn't have the language for it.
25:31-25:33
A lot of us come from monogamy.
25:33-25:35
We just don't know that there's another choice on the table.
25:35-25:37
We just don't know that it's possible.
25:37-25:39
We just don't know that it's a thing.
25:39-25:43
So it's not like we heard about it and decided, "Oh, this is a fun thing.
25:43-25:44
Let me try this out."
25:44-25:48
And some people do that and then go back to being monogamous and that's fine.
25:48-25:53
But for a lot of us, it's giving language to what we didn't previously know and having
25:53-25:57
that aha moment of, "Oh my God, I've always been this way.
25:57-25:58
Now I have validation.
25:58-25:59
Now I have language.
25:59-26:04
Now I can talk about it and evolve myself and my relationships with other people."
26:04-26:07
But the negative side of it is there.
26:07-26:12
You may be invited to less social interaction because you're polyamorous.
26:12-26:17
So if somebody has to invite you to a wedding and you have three partners and that wedding
26:17-26:21
went from a plus one to a plus three, you might not get that invite.
26:21-26:22
That's real.
26:22-26:25
So being upfront and communicating with your friends about your expectations like, "Hey,
26:25-26:28
I would love to come to your baby shower.
26:28-26:31
Is it cool if my girlfriend comes with me?"
26:31-26:32
They might say no.
26:32-26:33
They might say yes.
26:33-26:38
And it's giving them the grace and space to be able to refuse within their boundaries
26:38-26:40
as they're learning and evolving with you.
26:40-26:45
You will be able to tell which of your friends are on board for the learning experience and
26:45-26:48
which of them cannot get over their discomfort.
26:48-26:52
Those people will do it in their words and their actions and things like that.
26:52-26:57
And it's kind of our work to do to be okay with that, but also try to challenge it.
26:57-26:58
It's like that awkward thing.
26:58-27:02
Do you accept them for being uncomfortable or do you try to push the envelope?
27:02-27:05
Only you know your friends and the people in your circle.
27:05-27:10
But I've come to accept about myself that there are some people in my circle that simply
27:10-27:15
cannot accept this or they don't want to talk about it and they don't want to be around
27:15-27:18
it and they don't want their kids around it.
27:18-27:19
And that's okay.
27:19-27:23
I don't personally feel mad about that.
27:23-27:25
I feel the loss of it.
27:25-27:30
I feel the loss of those friendships, but I'm not upset with them because that's where
27:30-27:31
they are in their journey.
27:31-27:36
Like I have a lot of empathy for other people not understanding where I'm coming from with
27:36-27:40
polyamory because it is not something that is so mainstream.
27:40-27:46
That kind of leads into a conversation about what about the friends that are kind of like,
27:46-27:48
"Oh, hey, you're polyamorous.
27:48-27:51
Are we going to go on a date?"
27:51-27:55
Like they're like overly interested in this conversation.
27:55-27:59
Like, "Oh, hey, I see that you're poly now.
27:59-28:00
Let's hang out.
28:00-28:02
Are you ready?"
28:02-28:03
Right.
28:03-28:06
The only thing that was holding them back was the fact that you were in a monogamous
28:06-28:08
relationship at that point.
28:08-28:09
Right?
28:09-28:13
You find out that your friend of 25 years has been holding a candle in a closet for
28:13-28:23
you and they are just in your DMs and in your text messages and they are so excited or on
28:23-28:25
the flip side, they're jealous.
28:25-28:28
So you're out here dating all these people, but you're like, "Oh, you won't date me.
28:28-28:29
What's wrong with me?
28:29-28:30
I'll go on a date.
28:30-28:31
Let's go on a date."
28:31-28:35
It's that feeling that polyamorous people date indiscriminately.
28:35-28:39
Like all their previous preferences for who they want to date go out the window because
28:39-28:40
I can get whoever I want.
28:40-28:41
I can date whoever I want.
28:41-28:46
So I'm going to date as many people as possible, which is almost always not the case.
28:46-28:50
I'm sure some people like swing wildly from model and they're like, "Yeah, I'm going
28:50-28:51
to go wild."
28:51-28:52
And that's fine.
28:52-28:57
But for most of us, it's like, "No, we still have standards and we still have compatibility
28:57-28:59
that we're looking for."
28:59-29:05
And I think it kind of speaks to the monogamous problem of women who don't let their husbands
29:05-29:07
have female friends.
29:07-29:11
And the same thing in reverse, you can't have any guy friends because you think those people
29:11-29:14
are waiting in the closet with that candle like, "Someday she's going to leave him and
29:14-29:15
come to be with me.
29:15-29:16
Oh, wait, she's polyamorous.
29:16-29:17
We can be together now."
29:17-29:19
And I'm going to pull him away.
29:19-29:25
And we're going to talk a little bit more about that in the cowboy cowgirl cowpoke episode.
29:25-29:31
But there's absolutely this cohort of people that are sitting there thinking that because
29:31-29:36
you're polyamorous, you're going to date them because you already are friends.
29:36-29:40
And then there's this very small group of people that I would be remiss to not mention
29:40-29:42
that are going to get mad about it.
29:42-29:47
I actually have a friend who, when I came out as polyamorous, was like, "Oh, are you
29:47-29:48
into me?
29:48-29:50
Do you like me?
29:50-29:52
Would you date me?"
29:52-29:53
And the answer is no.
29:53-29:55
I'm not into her.
29:55-29:57
That is not how I've ever felt about her.
29:57-30:02
I have an odd take about this that I'm going to talk about later in this episode.
30:02-30:06
But my response to her was, "No, I'm not into you like that.
30:06-30:08
I don't want to date you."
30:08-30:15
And she was very upset with me, which I found to be a strange response because she is not
30:15-30:16
bisexual.
30:16-30:17
She's not even into women.
30:17-30:22
And she was, I want to say, I don't think jealousy is the right word, but she was mad
30:22-30:29
that I wasn't attracted to her because she knew as a polyamorous individual, now I had
30:29-30:34
more options and I could go after her if I wanted to because she was single and I was
30:34-30:35
still choosing not to.
30:35-30:40
So she felt like that double rejection, I think, even though she didn't want a relationship
30:40-30:41
with me.
30:41-30:44
I thought that was such a strange response.
30:44-30:47
And polyamory doesn't give us permission to go after whoever we want.
30:47-30:49
You have that permission because you're a human being.
30:49-30:57
But polyamory skills give us the above board ways in which we can pursue someone who we're
30:57-30:58
interested in.
30:58-31:04
I think the important thing is that just because you can or you would date multiple people
31:04-31:07
doesn't mean that you're going to date multiple people.
31:07-31:12
There still needs to be attraction within your spectrum, whatever that might be.
31:12-31:15
Kat and I happen to both identify as demisexual.
31:15-31:21
So for us, it does get confusing because we often need to be friends for a little while.
31:21-31:26
There does need to be a sort of friends first mentality before a relationship evolves.
31:26-31:32
But for some people who are just, you know, hypersexual, friendship doesn't always necessarily
31:32-31:33
matter.
31:33-31:38
And then, you know, it's but it is does matter that you find that person to be compatible
31:38-31:41
with you in whatever ways that you're both compatible.
31:41-31:44
Just because you're there doesn't mean we're going to date you.
31:44-31:47
So how do we decide who to date?
31:47-31:51
That begs the question, like how do you do pick who you're going to date?
31:51-31:52
As Doc mentioned, we're both demisexual.
31:52-31:57
So I have a horrible little compartment that lives in my head.
31:57-31:59
And I'll lay this out for you.
31:59-32:05
So especially as a demisexual and as a neuro-spicy individual, my little boxes in my head look
32:05-32:06
like this.
32:06-32:08
I have a box of people that are my friends.
32:08-32:09
They are my friends.
32:09-32:10
They will be my friends.
32:10-32:13
They will live in that friend box for the all of eternity.
32:13-32:19
There's nothing about this person that makes me want to have a relationship with them.
32:19-32:20
And that's not a testament to them.
32:20-32:22
That's just how I view them.
32:22-32:25
So I meet somebody new, I go, "Great, you're going to be a great friend."
32:25-32:27
They stay in that box.
32:27-32:32
Box number two are people I meet that I think there is some type of spark there.
32:32-32:37
And I'm not going to go super woo-woo on you, but I get vibes from them, right?
32:37-32:42
There's people I catch vibes with, and I don't know them or I just met them.
32:42-32:47
And those vibes may be really strong or they may be kind of weak, but we just jive together.
32:47-32:51
And I look at them as, "Wow, I am fascinated by you.
32:51-32:53
I want to get to know you.
32:53-32:57
Like I'm interested in you as a human," in a similar way that I would with a friend.
32:57-33:02
But there's that extra layer behind it of, "Maybe someday this could go somewhere."
33:02-33:04
So that's box number two.
33:04-33:10
Box number three are people that I meet with the intention of dating.
33:10-33:16
There is only one person I have ever successfully dated from cold that I was not friends with
33:16-33:18
first, and that is actually my husband.
33:18-33:25
So we met in a very random scenario, completely out of the blue, no dating apps were involved,
33:25-33:26
completely random scenario.
33:26-33:31
I immediately jived with him a little bit and we had similar interests.
33:31-33:35
And we had a really funny origin story that I don't need to repeat here because if you
33:35-33:38
know me, you know what it is and you know it's kind of weird.
33:38-33:39
But we started dating.
33:39-33:43
We started dating and I just loved talking to him.
33:43-33:44
I loved getting to know him.
33:44-33:46
We really vibed from the get-go.
33:46-33:52
So there are some people I meet that immediately fall into that box of, "Oh, these vibes are
33:52-33:53
strong.
33:53-33:58
I am attracted to you and it has nothing to do, if you look at my dating record, it has
33:58-33:59
nothing to do with the way you look.
33:59-34:07
I have a full spectrum of all different races, genders, gender identities, you name it, it's
34:07-34:09
in that bucket."
34:09-34:13
But really something about that person hits me on a level of, "I would love to know you
34:13-34:15
intimately.
34:15-34:17
I want to hear your darkest stories.
34:17-34:22
I want to really vibe with you on more of a deeper level," which is how I view my relationships.
34:22-34:27
So there are very few people I meet where immediately I'm like, "Zing, I would love
34:27-34:28
to date you."
34:28-34:31
There are a few people that fall in that middle bucket where I meet them and I'm like, "This
34:31-34:32
would be great someday."
34:32-34:38
And then there's people that I have that I love them and cherish them as a friend, but
34:38-34:41
I just can't see them through that lens.
34:41-34:46
I have a very close friend of mine that everyone thinks I was dating for probably about two
34:46-34:47
and a half years.
34:47-34:49
He is a wonderful friend.
34:49-34:50
I adore him as a friend.
34:50-34:55
We've talked about everything under the sun and he is conventionally a hot guy, so everybody
34:55-34:57
thinks I'm dating him.
34:57-35:00
I have no desire to have that kind of relationship with him.
35:00-35:02
He's just not in that bucket for me.
35:02-35:06
And that's a combination of the vibes, the intelligence, the personality, it's everything
35:06-35:07
all in one.
35:07-35:08
He's fantastic.
35:08-35:12
He's fantastic for someone else, not me.
35:12-35:16
So that's kind of how my buckets live.
35:16-35:19
And then I weigh that against, do I have time?
35:19-35:20
Do I have energy?
35:20-35:24
Do I have enough to make this relationship worth it?
35:24-35:26
Not just to me, but to that person.
35:26-35:30
Does that person need a lot of time and I can't give it to them?
35:30-35:34
Or is that person happy with something more casual where we see each other once or twice
35:34-35:35
a month?
35:35-35:40
Those are the two things that I weigh in my head and I would love to hear Doc's thought
35:40-35:44
process on how he decides to date because we're very different on this.
35:44-35:49
So my way through determining who is going to become a partner is a little bit different.
35:49-35:54
Kat's flow works for her and it absolutely makes sense when she describes it in my head
35:54-35:55
perfectly clear.
35:55-35:59
It's very good that Kat is clear about it because she can be clear about it with lots
35:59-36:05
of other people and that helps those relationships know where they stand in her life.
36:05-36:06
There's no wonder.
36:06-36:13
I am a little bit more complicated than that and my flow is a lot less clear.
36:13-36:16
I think that I would love to have a crystal clear way of explaining it.
36:16-36:20
I think my partners would also appreciate me having a crystal clear way of explaining
36:20-36:21
it.
36:21-36:25
But my way really is, where does this connection go?
36:25-36:29
It looks and feels a lot like a puzzle piece that is shifting.
36:29-36:33
I have people who start as friends and they end up becoming partners.
36:33-36:36
I have people who are partners who become friends.
36:36-36:42
And it is more about exploring that connection on an evolving and revolving basis.
36:42-36:43
Where are we now?
36:43-36:45
How are things growing?
36:45-36:46
How are things going?
36:46-36:47
Do you have space in your life?
36:47-36:49
Do I have space in my life?
36:49-36:51
I'm also very much thinking about it like a puzzle piece.
36:51-36:56
There may be an activity that I want to enjoy with somebody that none of my partners want
36:56-37:03
to enjoy with me and that provides an opportunity and a space for me to potentially think about
37:03-37:07
having another partner or build another connection with somebody.
37:07-37:08
I have a lot of...
37:08-37:13
You're saying you're one of those people that puts in your bio on your Hinge profile, "Let's
37:13-37:14
see where this goes."
37:14-37:19
No, because that's awful.
37:19-37:23
But I very much am like we're starting...
37:23-37:27
We all start in one place, which is let's start with being friends.
37:27-37:34
I am a dummy sexual, so I cannot jump right to let's meet and have sex together.
37:34-37:38
That's not generally what's going to happen.
37:38-37:39
I do need to...
37:39-37:44
I know my own sexuality that I need to have romantic feelings in order for that to be
37:44-37:45
fulfilling for me.
37:45-37:51
I'm old enough in my life that the quantity of sex is much less important to me than the
37:51-37:55
quality of sex.
37:55-37:59
Because that's transcendent for me and I really want that to be the case.
37:59-38:05
But I do have people in my life who just kind of hang out and they're awesome.
38:05-38:07
And over time, I get to know them.
38:07-38:11
It takes me maybe a little bit longer to get to know them in that dummy sexual way and
38:11-38:16
then click, "Hey, super interested now."
38:16-38:17
And that's okay.
38:17-38:23
But I think similarly, there does need to be that spark, that little bit of vibe that
38:23-38:29
there's a potentiality here that this could explore other realms of our connection.
38:29-38:35
I just really believe in connecting with that person as who they are, as they come in those
38:35-38:37
moments and what those might be.
38:37-38:42
And I think this gets into things like friends with benefits and other types of connections
38:42-38:47
and relationships because you can have friends with benefits.
38:47-38:50
Why can't we be friends?
38:50-38:52
Why can't we be friends?
38:52-38:58
I think being polyamorous is kind of unique in the way that, like I mentioned earlier,
38:58-39:03
you got husbands that their wives can't have male friends and you got women that don't
39:03-39:10
want their boys to be friends with other girls and all that kind of old toxic mononormative
39:10-39:11
type of way of thinking.
39:11-39:12
Think polyamory.
39:12-39:13
Yeah.
39:13-39:18
I think polyamory gives you that gift that you can escalate and de-escalate relationships.
39:18-39:24
And there's a whole future episode on this that just because you are friends doesn't
39:24-39:26
mean you have to escalate into partners.
39:26-39:31
Just because you're partners doesn't mean you have to do that hard breakup where you
39:31-39:35
pull the plug and ghost each other and you never talk about each other again.
39:35-39:37
You can de-escalate just down to friends.
39:37-39:44
There's a little more fluidity and a little more acceptance of escalating up and de-escalating
39:44-39:50
down and less pressure for that relationship escalator to just go straight to the moon.
39:50-39:53
If you're polyamorous, you can't marry all your partners.
39:53-39:55
Spoiler alert, it's illegal.
39:55-39:59
So you have a different path with every single partner and they're going to look a little
39:59-40:00
different.
40:00-40:03
They're going to just look like friendships on the surface.
40:03-40:07
And you could have an ace partner who's not even interested in the sexual component.
40:07-40:11
So most people are going to be like, "Oh, that's just your friend."
40:11-40:16
So I had a previous partner that was my asexual partner, I guess.
40:16-40:21
And from the surface level, I could just claim that person as a friend.
40:21-40:26
So the labels that we put about who's friends and who's not friends, I think that's why
40:26-40:29
my boxes are so clearly developed in my mind.
40:29-40:33
But polyamory can also reshape some of your old friendships.
40:33-40:40
We joked a little bit about this earlier, but it can reshape some of your previous relationships,
40:40-40:43
like rekindling old claims, bringing back new opportunities.
40:43-40:46
It can lead to new relationships with your meta.
40:46-40:48
Maybe you met your meta and you're like, "Oh, I don't like this person."
40:48-40:51
And then it evolves into a friendship and then maybe they evolve it to a different type
40:51-40:53
of partner or not.
40:53-40:59
But I think how the beautiful transition from friend to not friend and they're all everything
40:59-41:03
in between and how it can reshape some of those old flames is really interesting.
41:03-41:06
And Doc, I think you have a really good story for this one.
41:06-41:09
I have a very dear friend.
41:09-41:10
It's complicated.
41:10-41:15
Over the years, this friendship has become flirtatious.
41:15-41:17
It's become sexually interested and charged.
41:17-41:20
It waned into complete absence.
41:20-41:26
It rekindled into, "Hey, it's been a long time."
41:26-41:33
And this is somebody who I think is a decent person, but also probably is not polyamorous,
41:33-41:41
knows that I am, and put on the cowgirl, cowboy, cowpoke warning radar here, because the potentiality
41:41-41:47
is yeah, you're polyamorous, but that just means we can date until you figure out that
41:47-41:49
this is where you want to be, potentially.
41:49-41:55
But this is an old friend who has a lot of interest in having a relationship with me.
41:55-42:02
I have multiple thoughts about that that go from, I think we're better as friends to,
42:02-42:07
yeah, it's really possible that we can have a good relationship together if we're willing
42:07-42:09
to accept these other things.
42:09-42:19
But old friends definitely come back in the conversation about, "Oh, we can definitely
42:19-42:20
hang out now."
42:20-42:21
Maybe.
42:22-42:27
Yeah, and you do have to be aware of the people in your life that are coming back into your
42:27-42:31
orbit for a specific reason like that.
42:31-42:33
They see poly as...
42:33-42:37
I actually had a few friends that were like, "Oh, you're poly."
42:37-42:41
I became a dumping point for people that tell me about infidelities in their relationship,
42:41-42:47
which was really hard for me because I've never had infidelity in any of my relationships.
42:47-42:50
I've never cheated on anyone.
42:50-42:53
But all of a sudden, everyone in my life was coming to me with these stories about how
42:53-42:57
they had cheated on their spouses or their partners or something like that.
42:57-43:03
And to me, I had people coming and saying, "Oh, you're polyamorous, so you're not looking
43:03-43:04
for anything serious."
43:04-43:09
There's that level of understanding where people think it's not serious because there's
43:09-43:12
more people involved, and they think of you as a good time.
43:12-43:17
They're like, "Oh, well, you're into a lot of people, so let's just get down, get down."
43:17-43:20
And they just don't take it seriously.
43:20-43:25
And you can either educate them or you can just be like, "Look, dude, no, no way.
43:25-43:26
This is not happening."
43:26-43:31
But you have to watch out for how those conversations are happening because there's also the people
43:31-43:33
that are poly for the moment.
43:33-43:37
There are people who will use you as an opportunity to cheat because they think you're safe because
43:37-43:41
you are polyamorous and you're not going to try to take them away from their spouse.
43:41-43:45
And you're like, "Well, they're never going to ask for more from me.
43:45-43:48
I can cheat with this polyamorous person because they're never going to ask me for marriage
43:48-43:50
because they're polyamorous.
43:50-43:54
This is a safe bet for me to be out there cheating on my spouse."
43:54-43:58
And they might tell you that they're poly and their spouse has no idea.
43:58-44:05
So just be aware of the people that are coming into your life for some of those more nefarious
44:05-44:09
reasons where they're not taking you seriously, they're not taking your relationship style
44:09-44:14
seriously, and they might be out for something that you don't really want.
44:14-44:19
And the way to handle that really is, the way that I handle this with this old friend,
44:19-44:29
old flame, however we want to categorize that, is around the conversation of, "Hey, let's
44:29-44:35
have coffee and let's talk and let me explain to you how this could work."
44:35-44:41
But giving her the landscape of that helped to at least frame the conversation of, "This
44:41-44:47
is what that looks like," and for this person to be able to think about what a relationship
44:47-44:50
might look like, how that relationship might go.
44:50-44:57
And it also helps for me to suss out the, "Are they just poly to be mono?
44:57-45:02
Is this just, I'm agreeing to your polyamory now until I can get my hooks into you and
45:02-45:04
show you the ways of monogamy?
45:04-45:07
You've just never been loved the right way."
45:07-45:09
That's decidedly not true.
45:09-45:13
That poly for the moment thing is a really treacherous area because it can often look
45:13-45:15
and sound like real poly.
45:15-45:18
It can even look and sound like they were poly in the past.
45:18-45:20
They might know the words.
45:20-45:22
They might just be looking for that opportunity.
45:22-45:23
Yeah.
45:23-45:28
And I have seen this, not in my personal life, but I'm involved in a lot of communities that
45:28-45:33
are polyamorous based or non-monogamy based, and I've seen a lot of the poly for the moment
45:33-45:34
people.
45:34-45:38
They're polyamorous until they find the one, or they're polyamorous looking for the one,
45:38-45:42
or they date people who assume you're polyamorous until you find the one.
45:42-45:45
And they're very quick to assert that they're going to be the one.
45:45-45:46
Right?
45:46-45:47
Like, "Oh, that's okay.
45:47-45:50
You have other boyfriends, but I'm going to be so amazing, I'm going to turn your head."
45:50-45:54
And there's a lot of that toxic dating culture that we might talk about in the next episode,
45:54-45:56
which we were about to tell you about.
45:56-46:02
But the poly for the moment, if you're dating around and you're not actually polyamorous,
46:02-46:06
don't tell people you're polyamorous because if you attract a poly person, then you expect
46:06-46:07
them to become monogamous for you.
46:07-46:09
That's also not a great dynamic.
46:09-46:15
I'm not going to point fingers at men, but I've seen quite a few men trying to date polyamorous
46:15-46:19
women with the intent of that harem building that we talked about.
46:19-46:23
They're polyamorous, so they're seeking out polyamorous women to add to their collection
46:23-46:24
of women.
46:24-46:29
But their ultimate goal is to just have all these women be monogamous with them or just
46:29-46:31
with each other and put restrictions on dating.
46:31-46:37
And that can be your friends, and that can be people from your past that hear about you
46:37-46:40
and think that, "Okay, great.
46:40-46:44
This is the person I'm going to do this with," and you have some type of history there.
46:44-46:49
So sometimes those people get through our little demisexual gate because we look through
46:49-46:53
rose-colored glasses into the past and be like, "Oh, well, this person was really great,
46:53-46:55
so maybe this is going to turn into something."
46:55-47:02
So just be aware of your own limitations and your own, I would say, thought process around
47:02-47:07
how you think about people before you just jump in and say, "Hey, let's have a relationship."
47:07-47:13
On the other side of that, it's totally okay for you to say, "I'm not poly."
47:13-47:18
It's okay for you to be aware that we're all looking to have a positive, loving, caring
47:18-47:22
relationship with someone, regardless of whether that is just friends with benefits, because
47:22-47:28
friends with benefits is friends first, all the way to full-fledged partnership to whatever
47:28-47:31
escalation or whatever entanglement you're looking for.
47:31-47:34
We're looking for that to be a good experience for everybody.
47:34-47:38
I find this with, particularly with people from my past, when they find out that I'm
47:38-47:42
polyamory, it gives them a new opportunity to talk with me about potentially dating.
47:42-47:46
My first blush is like, "I want this to work for everyone involved.
47:46-47:49
Is that a shared value that we can work with?"
47:49-47:50
Exactly.
47:50-47:51
Exactly.
47:51-47:56
We teased this a little bit earlier, but what happens when you break up?
47:56-47:58
Can you still be friends?
47:58-48:02
My answer is yes, because of that higher level of communication that comes with being poly.
48:02-48:04
It kind of smooths that transition.
48:04-48:10
Obviously, if there's heated conversation and things like that, but for me, if you had
48:10-48:13
enough energy and time and effort and you had a long-term relationship with somebody
48:13-48:18
and it's just not there anymore, it's just not in that place where you want to be in
48:18-48:22
a relationship with them anymore and you need to deescalate, and you're going to deescalate
48:22-48:25
down to just friends again.
48:25-48:28
Polyamory gives you the language and the tools to kind of smooth out that transition.
48:28-48:30
It's not black and white.
48:30-48:31
It's not like, "Oh, we're not together.
48:31-48:33
I never have to speak to you again."
48:33-48:41
I like to think about this in positive ... I think about it like a positive divorce, which
48:41-48:45
is a terrible way of putting it, but I think of some really good example of people I know
48:45-48:48
that have really positive divorces and they have co-parenting.
48:48-48:52
They deescalated away from their relationships, but they're still friends.
48:52-48:54
They're terrific co-parents.
48:54-48:58
They're in it together and their relationship has changed and there's still that friendship
48:58-48:59
component to it.
48:59-49:03
They just recognize that they weren't good partners anymore.
49:03-49:04
Not saying all divorces turn out that way.
49:04-49:09
We all know that they don't, but I have seen a couple of good examples in my life where
49:09-49:17
my monogamous friends have successfully deescalated from spouses to co-parents in a way that,
49:17-49:21
for me, was reminiscent of poly breakups, where you can just deescalate to a friendship.
49:21-49:23
You don't have to stay friends.
49:23-49:26
That's the thing too.
49:26-49:31
If you learn through your romantic relationship things about that person that are just not
49:31-49:35
for you, it's okay to deescalate all the way to not being friends.
49:35-49:40
There's no requirements to remain with somebody in your life, in a friend level, in a relationship
49:40-49:45
level, that is not on your level, that doesn't have your same values, and that just isn't
49:45-49:46
there for you anymore.
49:46-49:50
It's okay to preserve your energy and step back from some of those, even if they were
49:50-49:51
friends before.
49:51-49:52
That's right.
49:52-49:56
And by the way, old friends that come back or friends in your life that are not poly
49:56-50:02
and you go through a similar story to Kat's or mine, it's also okay for you to say, "Maybe
50:02-50:04
we're not friends right now."
50:04-50:06
And that's fine.
50:06-50:07
Yeah.
50:07-50:10
You can be more free in your communication, I feel.
50:10-50:15
Some of the communication skills that I developed while being poly made me more adamant about,
50:15-50:17
"I really appreciate you as a person.
50:17-50:20
I just don't want to spend time with you right now.
50:20-50:24
I just don't think that we're bringing enough value to each other's lives to have this type
50:24-50:26
of relationship and this type of friendship."
50:26-50:31
I've walked away from friends in my life in the past couple of years because I really
50:31-50:33
learned from being polyamorous.
50:33-50:37
It wasn't a good friendship and I wasn't comfortable ending that friendship until I had that language
50:37-50:41
to say it.
50:41-50:43
Now that we know we can all be friends.
50:43-50:46
And we're not looking to make you poly.
50:46-50:48
And we're not looking to convert you to our cult.
50:48-50:52
Even though our cult is wonderful and we have candy.
50:52-50:55
And we think your cult is maybe needs to do some reflection.
50:55-51:00
I think we all need to do a reflection on if we want to be in the cult of polyamory.
51:00-51:02
That is not called poly.
51:02-51:07
But in our next episode, though, we're going to talk about dating while being polyamorous.
51:07-51:10
Just in time for Valentine's Day, whether you celebrate it, whether you hate it, whether
51:10-51:14
you have scars from growing up about never being chosen on Valentine's Day and you never
51:14-51:21
get a date and no one put a candy cane or a little heart-shaped thing in your desk sadness.
51:21-51:25
And all the CVS chocolates that you can get.
51:25-51:28
By the way, day after Valentine's Day, best day to buy chocolate.
51:28-51:30
You can just clear that rack for 70% off.
51:30-51:34
Anyway, our next episode will be full of all the wonderful fun that you can have while
51:34-51:36
dating while poly.
51:36-51:40
So fun-filled date ideas, good topics for discussion, how to deal with the first date,
51:40-51:47
the apps, how to date with integrity, and how to navigate dates like Valentine's Day.
51:47-51:50
Who do you take out on a date when you've got three partners and they all want to be
51:50-51:51
in your inbox?
51:51-51:52
So thank you for being here.
51:52-51:55
It is always a pleasure to spend time with you, Doc.
51:55-51:58
Love having you and love being on this podcast with you.
51:58-52:22
And we'll see you all next time.
52:22-52:28
Bye.
52:28-52:31
you
